Curse

Zinger314 · Apr 05, 2007, 05:20 AM // 05:20

(NOTE: This topic is not about if PvE is better than PvP or visa versa. Don't turn this topic into it.)

The planned Soul Reaping nerf in the planned skill balance has once again set the PvE and PvP argument.

ArenaNet has always said that Guild Wars is both PvE and PvP. They've tried to blur the line between PvE and PvP through Factions' Competitve Missions and Alliance Battles...but those failed miserably at merging both.

Obviously, there's no difference between PvE skills and PvP skills (with the exception of PvE only skills, such as Sunspear Resurrection Signet, which obviously wouldn't work in PvP.)

That, however, creates problems. PvP only updates (as claimed by ArenaNet), including the upcoming SR nerf, have often ruined a class PvE-wise? May I present every single freaking Paragon change since January 2007?

It seems to me that ArenaNet is leaning toward a PvE or PvP game. The attitudes and feelings of both PvE and PvP comminities are vastly different (I don't think I need to cite examples). I don't think there's a common ground. At all.

ArenaNet also supports it. The upcoming PvE update and GWEN will feature PvE only skills. GW2 appears to be even more PvE focused than GW1. PvP-wise, it appears that is Izzy's territory, and only that. Who works on PvE at ArenaNet, anyways?

Your thoughts?

Grasping Darkness · Apr 05, 2007, 05:25 AM // 05:25

I agree and think that maybe game function should differ in pvp and pve and has been proved possible with the ability to change skill order in pve.

Avarre · Apr 05, 2007, 05:29 AM // 05:29

It originally began as PvE and PvP, with PvE helping to lead into PvP, which was the unique factor of the game to a greater extent. However with a diversion from maintaining a balance in skill usage and balance in PvE and PvP, ANet has diverted from the previous path and segregated the game heavily to PvE or PvP.

Implementation of PvE-only skills (monster skills, lightbringer skills, etc) shows the failure of skill balance to cover both areas, which shows the additional problem of the failure to conceptualize both areas in synergy. If you have to create skills 'special' for PvE, what does that mean for the thousands of other skills that were meant to be 'balanced' for the game?

It's all a step back from the original idea of the game.

VitisVinifera · Apr 05, 2007, 05:29 AM // 05:29

Zinger, you've seen my thoughts on this.

IMO, to the pve player, these nerfs and changes seem arbitrary and sudden. I understand that balances and changes need to happen in pvp. But this is yet another example how the two need to be handled seperately. Back when it was just Prophecies, most of those (core) skills were pretty straight forward. Heal this much. Do this much damage. But with more supporting classes with conditional skills, the combinations become endless, and consequences in pvp unanticipated. So builds can exploit unintended outcomes. But then on the pve side, which is mostly static, it comes to this. And I'm not happy. All my best wishes to the pvp community, but I became tired long ago when their side brings down my side.

Yes, what's become of the Paragon is a shame. Why do I care if 8 player Paragons can stack their skills and hold HOH indefinitely? My pvp Paragon, before the serial ubernerfs, was as effective as my Warrior, Necro, etc.

lyra_song · Apr 05, 2007, 05:30 AM // 05:30

I think GW has great potential to be a PvE and PvP game.

I think differences in attitudes and philosophy forces the two player types to butt heads and makes it difficult to find anything that the two would be willing to do together.

Hence you are given choices of what you want to do.

I feel that PvP based changes affecting PvE is justified because the affects are universal for both player types.

It would be more unfair to create a uber strong PvE Necromancer with pve only skills, only to have a gimped Necromancer in PvP.

Such a situation would create a very broken game design, since transitioning from Pve to Pvp and vice versa would not be natural in the usage of skills.

RSGashapon · Apr 05, 2007, 05:31 AM // 05:31

Permanently uncouple PvE from PvP entirely and the problem will [read: should] go away completely.

Avarre · Apr 05, 2007, 05:34 AM // 05:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by VitisVinifera

IMO, to the pve player, these nerfs and changes seem arbitrary and sudden.

I can't think of a single skill or concept change in PvE that was based in PvP yet unwarranted in PvE as well.

It has nothing to do with whether you play one side, and feel the other side is causing issues. It has to do with an understanding of the game as a whole, and how balance works. I think you meant to say 'to the closeminded player', because you can choose to not play PvP while still understanding how PvP and PvE integrate into forming the game.

Sure, when I purely PvE'ed, some of the changes annoyed me (AoE update). But I still understood that these changes were necessary for the state of the game - and that has less to do with seeing both sides of the game and more to do with understanding how a game of this type works.

Feminist Terrorist · Apr 05, 2007, 05:38 AM // 05:38

Perhaps it's time to make the break: separate PVE from PVP. Make it so that skills work one way in PVE and another way in PVP. For example, and I'm just throwing something out there, Balanced Stance could have a 10 sec. duration in PVE, but a 5 or 6 sec. duration in PVP. After all, many skills are being used differently in the two areas, so why not make them different?

Why should Avatar of Melandru, for example, be severely limited in PVE, where it's not being used in a competitive way, simply because it is being used in a competitive way in PVP?

As a PVE player, I don't like that the way I play my game is impacted by a style of game play I neither engage in nor have any plans to engage in. Maybe trying out a complete separation for a limited time might provide some solutions to this problem.

cellardweller · Apr 05, 2007, 05:42 AM // 05:42

If you play PvE or PvP you are missing out on half of this spectacular game.

Having seperate skill sets would create the onerous burden of having to memorise 2 descriptions for every skill and would definitely annoy every hybrid player.

The Ernada · Apr 05, 2007, 05:44 AM // 05:44

Most times, I come across as a PVP only player when in fact I'm a hybrid player (Play both PVP and PVE almost equally) I really don't see a problem with PVE skills being affected by PVP. As Avarre said, I hardly ever see a nerf that wasnt warranted in PVE as well. And SR is definately broken in PVE as well.

I dont know what they plan on doing in GW2. If there is a separation of PVE and PVP then that's fine. I just dont expect the complaints of nerfs to ever stop though. Even in PVE only MMO's nerfs happen. And people still complain about them. And the thing is that people still go at each other blaming each other for the nerfs. (i.e. in COH before there was PVP, Tankers blamed Scrappers for their nerfs and vice versa)

The point is that separating PVE and PVP may soothe things for a bit, but there will still be nerfs and complaints about nerfs.

Mesmerman · Apr 05, 2007, 05:48 AM // 05:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

The planned Soul Reaping nerf in the planned skill balance has once again set the PvE and PvP argument.

Citation needed.

tomcruisejr · Apr 05, 2007, 05:52 AM // 05:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

I can't think of a single skill or concept change in PvE that was based in PvP yet unwarranted in PvE as well.

Well how many PvErs are playing SB/Ri vs Mursaats and using ritualists to fuel a PvE necro/monk and necro/rt to heal their team mates doing thunderhead. If you see them in PvE send me a screen shot.

Almost all of the changes in game, sadly, are based on PvP balance. PvErs have their own world and they play according to their liking and yes, changes from PvP are unwarranted. How many PvErs cried when they nerfed IWAY? spirit spam? airspike? energy denial? No one but the players of those coz the usual PvE farming build was not iway, spirit spam, airspike and e denial.

When a.net plans to nerf one of the most sacred things in PvE, expect something like this to happen.

Avarre · Apr 05, 2007, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

Well how many PvErs are playing SB/Ri vs Mursaats and using ritualists to fuel a PvE necro/monk and necro/healer doing thunderhead keep. If you see them in PvE send me a screen shot.

The changes were to Soul Reaping itself as a blanket nerf. Soul Reaping was broken in PvE as well, giving necromancers colossal energy management without any skill slots. What is your point?

The post you quoted was in reference to things that were heavily used in PvE and claimed to be 'nerfed for PvP reasons', not things that were irrelevant in PvE anyways - not a part of the discussion whatsoever.

tomcruisejr · Apr 05, 2007, 06:02 AM // 06:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

The changes were to Soul Reaping itself as a blanket nerf. Soul Reaping was broken in PvE as well, giving necromancers colossal energy management without any skill slots. What is your point?

Broken in PvE? Did the PvE monsters complain?

And who in PvE complains about soul reaping? And you tell us that,

"I can't think of a single skill or concept change in PvE that was based in PvP yet unwarranted in PvE as well."

LOL?

Firestone · Apr 05, 2007, 06:11 AM // 06:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ernada

... I really don't see a problem with PVE skills being affected by PVP. As Avarre said, I hardly ever see a nerf that wasnt warranted in PVE as well....

Eg.
Mesmer
Energy Surge -> AoE area changed to nearby

Paragon
Incoming -> 11 sec changed to 3 sec

Ranger
Dual Shot -> 4 sec changed to 10 sec

Ritualist
Shelter -> 15e changed to 25e ... spirit dies faster.

Monk
Zealot's Fire -> decreased dmg, lose 1 energy

Should I go on with the list?

Frankly speaking, by choosing to incorporate PVE and PVP together is just asking for trouble. PVE or PVP should be a better method. Its about consumer choice. The direction that ANET is going towards now is a better sense. Only PVE skills specifics.

After all, why should I change myself to suit the game, when I can change the game to suit myself?

I am a PVE person mainly. PVP occasionally. Why should my Paragon suffer because some idiots decide to go paraway?
Heck, I think if some idiots decided to make touch rangers for high end GVG and owns... I think rangers will be getting the nerf to expertise attribute now.

Side topic:
This is what I've thought of in another topic post

Remember how they are going to rework Soul Reaping mechanism?
Soul Reaping: now only provides Energy at a maximum rate of once every 5 seconds.

They should change all of Paragon's shouts / chants mechanism to this method.

Confused? Here's an example:

Example: Incoming
For 5...11 seconds, all party members within earshot take 50% less damage. This skill only affect party members at a rate of once every 20 seconds.

This way, chants cannot be spammed continously by different paragon since the skill will be nullified at the 2nd spam.

So, for the first Incoming chant, it will last 5 -11 seconds (and work). However, from the 12 to 20 seconds, spamming another Incoming chant from another Paragon will not work for the party members since it only work once per 20 seconds. This will effectively kill all the Paraway.

-------

Side note: The next online game I'm getting will not be based on skills adjustment due to PVP setting. Sick and tired of this.

LethalHands · Apr 05, 2007, 06:12 AM // 06:12

Who would complain? Just because no one complains that the vending machine is giving M&M's for 50 cents instead of a dollar, doesn't mean the machine isn't broken. The owner of that machine is probably freakin' pissed off about it.

Rakeman · Apr 05, 2007, 06:26 AM // 06:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

If you play PvE or PvP you are missing out on half of this spectacular game.

Having seperate skill sets would create the onerous burden of having to memorise 2 descriptions for every skill and would definitely annoy every hybrid player.

QFT! If you only want to play half, go ahead... but a lot of us enjoy everything about the game!

One of the best things about basing changes off of PvP is that it prevents any profession from completely dominating PvE (see WoW). If the professions are balanced AGAINST each other, they will be balanced when working WITH each other. Yes, this has backfired as exploits in PvP resulted in unnecessary changes for the PvE end that really screwed things up. I think it would be best for Anet to tackle the individual exploits as opposed to changing the functionality- for example:

Paragon teams too powerful: Instead of making Paragons worse, make their shouts and chants unable to effect other Paragons! The Paragon is still just as useful, but the exploit is destroyed.

Necromancers have too much energy: Instead of limiting the rate of energy, make Soul Reaping unaffected by spirits and maybe only half energy from minions. There, Soul Reaping serves the purpose it intended, and can't be exploited.

See, Anet currently solves most problems with the same answer: Make it weaker. Nerf it. Make it worse. They should try thinking outside the box- kill the exploit, not the skill/attribute/profession!

tomcruisejr · Apr 05, 2007, 06:44 AM // 06:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by LethalHands

Who would complain? Just because no one complains that the vending machine is giving M&M's for 50 cents instead of a dollar, doesn't mean the machine isn't broken. The owner of that machine is probably freakin' pissed off about it.

Of course. That machine is broken. But tell us please exactly, in detail, with convincing reasons, how soul reaping is broken in PvE?

Effendi Westland · Apr 05, 2007, 06:47 AM // 06:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

The changes were to Soul Reaping itself as a blanket nerf. Soul Reaping was broken in PvE as well, giving necromancers colossal energy management without any skill slots. What is your point?

Broken in PvE?

So the way a class has functioned for 2 years is not the way the class was intended to function?

Quote:

which we believe will help Soul Reaping get closer to its intended function.

Why do I buy games from this company, takes them 2 years to fix something that was not used the way it was intended.

Catsohori · Apr 05, 2007, 06:54 AM // 06:54

Games need to have a difference if they are like Guild Wars in skill changes. PvP changes effect the balance between players against other players. Player against NPC is entirely different. PvE is meant to be played with you against the machine, and PvE builds area always different.

So yes, break them apart. Or make sure the balance is on both sides of the spectrum, that or accept that when Fury comes out GW may have a run for its PvP money.